Submitted by Harry Friedland on Mon, 03/08/2010 - 17:47.

Sir At my wife's insistence, I schlepped along to the kosher counters at our local Checkers in Sea Point, and peered at a couple of dead birds, who were clearly beyond caring about my insulting gaze. My wife was justifiably outraged. These poor apologies for chicken, looking more like starving seagulls after weeks at sea than like chicken, were going for a king's ransom.

She then schlepped me to inspect the non-kosher section a few counters away, and there languished some of the most attractive birds I have seen in a long time. Plump, rosy, bursting with vitality, they were a graphic explanation for why Jewish men sometimes stray after non-kosher birds. (We are talking about chicken here, aren't we? - OK).

But here's the punch-line: those non-kosher chickens were marked at LESS THAN ONE THIRD OF THE PRICE OF THE KOSHER CHICKENS (which brings me back to why Jewish men sometimes stray ... oh, behave!)

The truth is that I don't care how much it costs the Beth Din to declare a chicken kosher, and I agree that as Jews we should be prepared to put our money where our mouth is (oh, I'm on a roll here ...) - but I care that I am insulted with third-grade chicken at six-star prices, when there is a graphic illustration of what a healthy chicken should look like sitting in the next aisle, at one third of the price!

There is a rumour doing the rounds in Cape Town, just to rub salt into the the wound, that we are getting Jo'burg's rejects. My wife says that her chicken goes "off" abnormally quickly, and sometimes it's "off" on the shelves at Checkers. When she complained about this to the mashgiach his response was, "If you don't like it, go buy your meat at Pick 'n Pay!"

Huh? I think its a combination of factors which has angered Cape Town Jews who want to keep kosher (for some people its a new thing, for some people its not even a question). Partly, it actually is the price. Slightly in excess of 300% - that's just a bad joke. Only an idiot remains silent in the face of that sort of mark-up. Secondly, its the quality.

The people who are buying this meat aren't asking for charity, aren't paupers, and don't deserve this insult, either to their digestive systems or to their intelligence. Come on! Finally, it's the attitude.

This take-it-or-leave-it, this-is-all-there-is nonsense that we get from the suppliers and the retailers, seemingly endorsed by the Beth Din. Not many people would heed a call to boycott meat suppliers, so I won't even go there - but we should boycott them.

Instead, we kvetch, and we kvetch, and week after week we go out there and we buy this rubbish, and the Beth Din makes placatory noises with an interminable "investigation", which may or may not produce results before Moshiach comes. I understand, the Beth Din are not a consumer protection body and perhaps we expect too much of them in that regard - but you have a class action brewing here, and they are our ecclesiastical court.

Perhaps the time has come for us to take our meat suppliers, or retailers to the Beth Din for price-fixing, or racketeering, or sharp business practice. In the meanwhile, a 300% mark-up is a factor in the budget of anyone who is not rolling in money and is considering the question of whether or not to take his Judaism up another notch and go kosher. And that's the truth.

Submitted by chabadgirl on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:28.

Although I can't comment on the mark-ups, I can say that we have the same problem in JHB. For a month or so in December prices went down dramatically as this investigation kicked off.

A whole pack of chicken pieces was in the R60.00 region, but now it's back to it's usual R76-00 to R85-00 range again, as it was before.

I understand laws of supply and demand will make prices different than non-kosher chickens because their is an extra salary to pay and distribution to worry about, but when I consider that the Beth Din published their rate per chicken via Kashrut News in email and on Facebook (which seemed very low) I can't see how 300% is justified, especially when the red meat prices are not so dramatically different (in JHB anyway, not sure about Cape Town).

Chicken used to be the inexpensive, healthy meat to buy, not it seems to be the most expensive meat in the market!
Thank goodness for beef flavoured crisps, otherwise many of us wouldn't have any meat flavour in our lives! Let's hope Kavalier makes pesadik versions. :)

Submitted by Darren Sevitz on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 09:44.
Sorry Chabadgirl, Kavallier are only making Salt 'n Vinegar, and Plain Salt.But hey, maybe we can use the salt crisps to kasher our own chickens?

What I would like to know is why kosher fresh products in Johannesburg (Where 90% of SA Jews live)is so much more expensive then Kosher products in Cape Town. I was in Cape Town in December and found that a kosher ready cooked chicken from Checkers Sea Point was around R45 while a similar size ready cooked chicken in Joburg is around R60. Also why do Challas cost in Joburg between R11-R14 while I found them in Cape Town for far less. In theory the Beth Din is the franchisor of kosher so why do they allow their franchisees to make living a kosher lifestyle almost prohibitively expensive (Don't even get me started on Kosher restraunts).

You all me "make me sick"
In Israel chickens are very inexpensive
Education is free.
Health care is "for nothing"
Air is Holy.
Housing in many parts of Israel is cheaper than S. Africa (better hurry up, because prices are rising fast)
Bottom line!!
Leave the putrid exile and come HOME.

Choni, these inexpensive Israeli chickens - would they be under the supervision of the Rabanut L'Kashrut Haaratzit? Or perhaps the Bais Din Tzedek of the Eida Hachareidis of Jerusalem, or the
Bais Din Tzedek of Agudath Israel Moetzes Hakashrus, or maybe the Bais Din Tzedek of K'hal Machzikei Hadas, or I know some people prefer Rabbanut Yerushalayim Mehadrin, while others are particular about Badatz Mehadrin. Personally I don't mind either of the above, but then ther are those who only eat Rabbanut Harashit Rechovot while their cousins will want Sheris Yisroel. If these inexpensive chickens are under the OU in Israel or Chug Chosam Sofer (but not Chug Chosam Sofer of Petach Tikvah) or Rabbi Moshe Yehudah Leib Landau, then they may be okay as well.

I look forward to eventually making Aliyah from this putrid exile, leaving the relative harmony and unity of this community to breath the Holy Air and absorb the kind of tolerance that "makes me sick" of my fellow Jews.

I wish you a chag kasher v'sameach (but don't eat from you know who - their Rabbi wears a kippa which is you know what).

DS

To Darrenous; A Jew shall always live in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city full of "treife" chickens, and not chutz LaAretz, even in a city full of "kosher" chickens. ( with acknowledgments to Ketuvot 110b).

And a chag sameiach to you and all readers.

To Darrenhaus- Who says that Jews have to be comfortable in exile.
Exile is the ultimate punisment, and any Jew who remains in exile when he has the oppurtunity to make Aliyah is commiting a loathsome sin.
Further thoae leaders who make it comfortable to remain in exile are acting in the manner as the (10) spies.
You can squawck as much as you like about Jews in the Diaspora, but nearly 2000 years of punishment is enough.
Since you admit that it is a Mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisrael, why should you be excluded.
At least encourage the youth to yearn for their own Land, instead of making it comfortable in exile.
Chabad and others "scream" Mashiach Now! (which entails the IMMEDIATE ingathering of Jews to EY), and at the same time spend vast amounts of money building community centres in the Diaspora, planning for an indefinite future in exile.

To Chabadgirl.
I urge you to read "Eim Habanim Semeichah" by Rabbi Shlomo Yissachar Teichtal.zt'l
It is available on the Internet.

Great!! From (kosher) chickens we are moving toward the final redmption.
Keep up the debate

One of the great mysteries of life here in South Africa (I am an America kosher Jew living here in SA with my South African husband) is:

How come kosher chicken is significantly cheaper in the US than red meat? And why is red meat less expensive than chicken here?

I think chickens cost the same, comparably, to grow and schect here - or less - than in America.... I don't get it.

To Ashman,
I really admire and respect your honesty by implying that you will not leave S. Africa, and make Aliyah for financial reasons.
My comments are focused primarily on those orthodox Jews who choose to remain in exile, making various excuses for not making Aliyah.
They insist that Israel is still Golus, and we should "Mach doh Eretz Yisrael" (make this place EY, whether it be Johannesburg or Berlin).
Once again they act as did the spies by influencing thousands to remin in exile until Mashiach comes.
This is the truth.

P.S. Do you really wish for your children and Grand-children to remain here indefinitely, simply because thre is no financial security in Eretz Yisrael.

Ashman!
Risk the family stability and well-being (in the Diaspora)?

You can take a Jew out of exile, but (after nearly 2000years) it is very difficult to take the exile out of a Jew.

Kosher Jelly Tots are evil

Just like the ten spies and Chabad they seem to keep us Jews locked in exile by satisfying our desires with a sweet we can only find in one country on Earth!

In fact they’re like hundreds of little spies in a packet!! How scary is that?

Whatever can be done about these cursed little evil doers?

I say we eat them!

Seriously though Choni, I see Chabad is too dignified to respond to your constant Chabad bashing. I’m not a spokesperson from Chabad, but I am a person who has experienced the sparks of Jewishness they’ve ignited within me through encouragement, incredible tolerance and love. They are a big part of the reason I have taken the steps I have and one of my future steps will be to make aliyah with my children. Although I know Hashem has pushed me, there are also people in this world that open doors just when one needs them.

As I see it the Chabad shluchim, the Beth Din and the many Rabbis who inhabit our land and provide us service don’t make us comfortable in our exile. Before they arrived many Jews were already comfortable in their exile and living secular lives in line within the ‘foreign’ communities around them including assimilating their culture. These people and bodies reach out to people and connect them to their Jewishness. When I witness the people in my own shul it is phenomenal. Formerly Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah Jews are regularly helping to make a minyan each Shabbat, my story goes without saying and the list goes on. When they extend a simple invitation to a secular Jew for Shabbos dinner and have those people over the impact can be significant. It’s only a matter of time before these people will feel the yearning to return to our land and many will.

In the world you paint Jews who don’t live in Eretz Israel are just meant to be doomed and lost. They would not suddenly feel a longing, they would just go about their lives until the end of days. Hashem has many emissaries and Chabad seems to be just one. As I’ve mention the Beth Din, the Rabbis and the kosher food establishments and various Jewish bodies all serve to connect us to our Jewishness in a similar way and people are slowly returning. It is quite obvious if you think about it. So many Jews have moved to Eretz Israel with the help and blessing of these establishments. By being connected to their Jewishness they feel the yearning we all do eventually. One mitzvah leads to another and before we know it we’re keeping many more than we planned. It’s a mitzvah to make aliyah and it makes sense at some point people will want to keep that too.

I wish you’d stop blasting out your naked vitriol, take a step back and see the wonder the Hashem is working. We’re nearly at a point where the majority of the Jewish people in the world live in Eretz Israel and the numbers go up daily. Who are we to question how that will happen? The Torah tells me the in-gathering of the exiles will happen regardless, yet you seem to question Hashem’s will by forcing the matter in your terms and your terms only. I understand that our in-gathering will be to the whole land, not just the state that exists today. Perhaps conditions have improved these last 63 years, but that doesn’t mean it’s all in place.

Mohammed used a sword to convince people to follow his religion and practice. I don’t see your approach as much different! Try to consider we’re not all as well read as you, and many of us would rather look to our rabbis for answers because we don’t feel we’re learned enough to make these types of decisions without their help (yes, I get it! I'm talking about people in general).Although you may see them as a disincentive to us all making aliyah I see them as people who serve us by connecting us to our Jewishness and never allowing us to become lost! Many of us, including me, are grateful they’re here and helping us to see what you might indeed see so plainly already. Their methods are better.

Chabadgirl! Do you realy think that I rely on my own understanding when I push Aliyah?
I was an active member of Chabad for 20 years of my 77 years.
While Chabad did "bring" me back to my roots at a late stage, they also unwittingof Jews.ly (and sadly wittingly) pushed any thoughts of Aliyah to one side. They made EY a peripheral issue.
Until I started to read other works on Zionism, I was a "wait for Mashiach Chossid."
Once again Chabad girl, I urge you (and other readers) to read "Eim Habanim Semeichah"

Btw, I left Chabad when the great grandson of the author of the above book,decided to raise millions of dollars (under the auspices of Chabad)to erect a 100sq. meter replica of the Kotel in murderous Berlin. Chabad imported 19 tons of Jerusalem stone to Berlin to do this desecration.
Would the Rebbe have approved this insult to the pure emotions of millions of Jews?

You know we both agree aliyah is important. I just don't agree with your approach. Whipping people is not appropriate in any day and age. Change your approach and get a groundswell of support for the mission you're clearly on.

My Rabbi doesn't discuss aliyah often because there are lots of things to discuss, to learn and to teach, but he certainly does not push it to one side or downplay its importance.

Chabad and Orthodox Judaism in general (the Rabbi's, Beth Din etc.) have all been good and decent and helped my family considerably in our journey despite many huge challenges. I'm not going to take a look at one or two incidents and use those to write anyone off. You've mentioned this Berlin thing many times, but it has no emotional impact on me. It seems no different than finding the real London Bridge in Lake Havasu City. It has no more impact on me that a synagogue being built there. It's the same thing. People aren't stupid, we know where the original is, but if there is a nice wall in a peaceful place to go and daven I can't see that being such an issue. I realize the Shoah was a significant event with deep impacts to many, including my own family, but the example you use is devious and does not build your case. You're appealing to people's emotions to create case for disliking some sections of our community, while not using that same skill of appealing to people's emotions to get them to make aliyah. Baseless hatred was a reason for the destruction of the 2nd temple... let's not go there today.

I hope you've found a place where you can daven in peace and that you are part of a community that you enjoy being in. No one should feel excluded.

And yes, as much as it might disappoint you, I do want Moshiach now! That doesn't mean aliyah suddenly disappeared of my radar.

I will read the material you sent me at an appropriate time. I don't get to re-prioritize everything in my life because someone wrote something. My family comes first.

Just two comments on your reply.
1) regarding the "Kotel" in Berlin.
It is hallachically forbidden for a Jew to derive any benefit from a place where Jewish people were persecuted. (Sanhedrin 45b; Rambam, Hilchot Sanhedrin 15:9)
PLEASE SEE P322-325 in EIM HABANIM SEMEICHAH.

2)As regards discussing Aliyah; 99% of the Orthodox leaders before WW2 (and even after the start of the war); including the vrierdike Lubavitcher Rebbe,strongly objected to any form of Zionism (Aliyah).
WE all know the tragic consequences of their judgements.
As a very intelligent lady, can't you see any danger in neglecting to put this issue as the most important one for Jewish people in the Diaspora in these anti-semitic times?
This is why I am trying to "force" as many as possible to remember our recent past in exile, and at least inspire our youth to come Home.

Let me remind you of the words of the Yaavetz (Rabbi Yaakov Emdin) written 250 years ago.
"When it seems to us in our present peaceful existence outside of the Land of Israel, that we have found another Eretz Yisrael, this is to me the greatest, deepest, most obvious, and direct cause of all the awesome, frightening, monstrous, unimaginable destructions that we have experienced in the Diaspora."
250 years later look at the results of above words.Pogroms,holocausts, and day to day assimilation in the Diaspora.

Chabadgirl if you think I write my words out of "baseless hatred" , you are dead wrong.
I write them because it breaks my heart to see wonderful Jewish boys and girls living in a putrid exile, when Our "mother" Rachel is weeping for their presence in Eretz Yisrael.

P.S. If building a "kotel" in Berlin is unimportant, then why did Chabad do it, and why only Berlin. May as well build one in Glenhazel.

We were persecuted in Jerusalem too. Millions of Jews have died at the hand of aggressors who would annihilate us in our Holy Land.

I also am not sure how you would expect people to make aliyah to a place that was not a Jewish nation. The times you discuss are before the creation of the Jewish state and I can only assume you're being disingenuous. The greater question is probably how many Rabbi's in that time were advocating moving to "Palestine" both before and after the Balfour declaration. You are not being reasonable at all in your persecution of those Rabbi's nor are you putting yourself in those peoples' shoes at the time.

I do think you advocate hate. The things you say about those who will not move are clearly generalized judgements about them, and as I'm one of those people right now I find it offensive and hateful. I don't like the approach you've taken until now and I'm not going to pretend I do.

Are we still talking about chickens?

It is a JEWISH NATION now (since 1967), but where is the Aliyah.
Chabadgirl, How can you find my words hateful and offensive?
How can a 77 year old Jew possibly have the power to force people to make Aliyah?
I do recall that since the time of the spies, those that advocated Aliyah (Yehoshua and Calev), were the ones that were hated.
If you consider me hateful and offensive, then so be it.
You have succeeded in having me censored in your blog, so now you are trying to censor by comments

To Larry and S.A. Jew.
Larry; All my comments about Aliyah are directed toward the general community, especially the youth, and not to individuals. Our leaders especially the Religious leaders should make Aliyah a primary concern amongst the youth.
There are certainly cases where Aliyah is not possible for everybody. I myself did make Aliyah with my wife and ill daughter.
Unfortunately it did not work out for her at all.(i do not wish to go into details).We did send her back alone (to the Selwyn Segal), but my wife and I have since returned to S.Africa. It was a difficult decision.
sajew; As far as I am concerned the state of Israel was only "official" with the liberation of Jerusalem in 1967.

Kosher ripoff continues!

Last week I bought roast chicken and chicken pieces from both Morningside Pick 'n Pay and Norwood Pick 'n Pay.

How can anyone justify these price differentials.

Morningside Pick 'n Pay

Kosher Roasted Chicken - R106.95/kg

Kosher Chicken Braai Pk - R65.95/kg

Norwood Pick 'n Pay

Kosher Roasted Chicken - R72.99/kg

Chicken Chicken Braai Pk - R51.95/kg

I can't see any difference in the meat, besides the expensive roasted chickens being the scrawniest birds ever to have lived.

Can anyone figure this out.

Chicken Braai Packs were 27% more expensive, and roasted chicken was 46% more expensive.

What do they transport these things from the Shtetl to Morningside in? Perhaps a gold plated Rolls Royce kosher bar fridge perhaps. Nevermind the chicken is already way more expensive than it's non-scrawny non-kosher equivalents.

I feel nothing less than taken advantage of!

P.S. I took photos of the price labels from the more expensive store. It is unbelievable

Hi,

Just to explain the reason why Morningside's kosher meat / chicken prices are more expensive than Hypermarket-this is due to the supply chain.
Hypermarket has a dedicated butchery and are cutting, processing and packing on site which saves money. Morningside is a convenience store supplying much smaller volumes and are not producing themselves,they are getting it pre-packed, pre cut and pre priced from a local butcher and obviously there are extra costs involved as there are extra processes in the supply chain.
If you have any questions / queries regarding kosher meat prices please feel free to contact me www.koshermeat.co.za
Boruch Lurie

A new twist: I see Checkers Sea Point advertised Kosher chicken for R29.00 today. I didn't go and look (was late for my walk on the beachfront), so can't say whether these were roasted, toasted or oys gemattered but it sounds significantly cheaper than anything discussed above. Do you think all the kvetching finally is working?

Lion613